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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 15:44:00 -
[1]
It's not a factor of ECM being overpowered to me. Not in the manner that most people think at least.
My beef with ECM is the amount of firepower left availible to the user. To completely nullify another vessel and pound the crap out of it is a bit much. For your Scorpion example, there are the 4 Siege Launchers loaded with torps and 2 turrets which allows the Scorpion to not only castrate a target for itself and others. But kill it as well.
It's just my opinion that a ship specialized for ECM should sacrifice a significant portion of its attack potential. And that goes for all ships, not just the Scorpion.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 16:00:00 -
[2]
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Jash,
It's really really hard to kill anyone 1 vs 1 with a Scorpion.
Trust me.
You simply can't lock, target-jam, webify, and warp-jam someone effectively enough that you can kill them.
D'you know why?
MWD.
MWD, invuln timers, turning on the scramblers/webifiers almost guarantees they get off a salvo...tons of possible answers, all applicable and prolly none the one you're looking for.
Still doesn't change the feeling that a ship setup for ECM should not have that amount of firepower at it's disposal.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 16:07:00 -
[3]
Quote:
Jash,
We need to do a comparison of single volley damage from all battleships to find out just how overpowered the Scorpion is.
We need soltys back!
To me it's still a balance of roles issue.
A ship configured to be a gunship will sacrifice in other areas fill the gunship role.
A ship configured to be a close combat vessel will sacrifice in other areas to fill the close combat vessel role.
A ship configured to be an ECM vessel should have to sacrifice in other areas to fill the ECM role.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 16:18:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 22/11/2003 16:19:57
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Still doesn't change the feeling that a ship setup for ECM should not have that amount of firepower at it's disposal.
I guess my point of view is that the ship is severly limited. Its giving up a huge portion of defense capabilities (shield boosters / hardeners etc) for all this ecm.
Further youve substantially limited the offensive options to guns/missiles that dont use cap.
ECM is its own defense. Especially with the Poor Thinking Man's ECM, Sensor Dampeners, added to the mix.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 16:49:00 -
[5]
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Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 22/11/2003 16:25:55
...
That's the story of a solo Scorpion pilot.
...
Since when is balancing for the solo player a priority in MMOG? That's where the problems keep coming in with this game: people trying to do everything by themselves and the half catering to that mentality.
Make ECM modules high slot, increase the power so it's not a 1 ship/1 jam contest and make ECM a fleet role as it should be. The ability to completely neuter a target vessel is an extremely powerful advantage. It should require help to capitalize on that advantage. The current problem is that the additional manpower causes what I perceive as the imbalance.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 17:08:00 -
[6]
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Make ECM modules high slot
Which means we'd have 8 medium slots free to make ouselves a shield tank or have insane cap recharge.
And you have a problem with that?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 17:22:00 -
[7]
Quote:
I dont know what you mean about additional manpower causing a perceived imbalance. Could you elaborate?
Toss in something as defenseless as a Vigil or even a Mammoth to offset some of abilities that are taking up the midslots on the Scorpion. If they get shot, you might barely break 1m in losses.
It doesn't matter who warp scrambles/webifies a target, just that the target isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Joshua has an issue with the lock timer on the Scorpion allowing the prey to run. Why use the Scorpion's longer lock timer when there are ships that can do the same job, faster?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 17:28:00 -
[8]
Quote:
If that were to happen the arrangement of Caldari ships mean it would no longer be EW-based.
Amarr ships would rule the day for ECM.
What would Caldari get instead? Shiny cup-holders? 
You're operating under the assumption that Caldari are supposed to be the Masters of ECM. I don't operate under that assumption.
Caldari are Shield Tanks/Missile Users.
Minmatar are Jack of All Trades/Projectile Users.
Amarr are Armor Tanks/Laser Users.
Gallente are a pooched atm but they'll get fixed eventually. Their defensive strength will be distance and their offensive strength will be Drones + Hybrids.
And anyone with 8 high slots could be an ECM ship if ECM modules were returned to the high slot configuration. Question is who'd want to completely surrender their Gunship or Missile Boat like that?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:49:00 -
[9]
It all comes back to a simple point: People keep acting like Caldari ships will be utterly defenseless and useless without ECM which is utter nonsense. What people really want is to make their opponents utterly defenseless and kill them all with the same ship.
Caldari ships are shield tanks. A ship that can run an opponent out of ammo and patience is far from defenseless in my book. Missiles are no longer worthless, so that doesn't wash anymore either.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:22:00 -
[10]
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It all comes back to a simple point: People keep acting like Caldari ships will be utterly defenseless and useless without ECM which is utter nonsense. What people really want is to make their opponents utterly defenseless and kill them all with the same ship.
How long are you going to keep repeating yourself before you at least acknoledge what several people are saying?
I am NOT acting like caldari ships are defenseless without ECM, and I dont think anyone has said dont take ecm away because then caldari will be defenseless. My point, and that of many others is that being a sepcialized ECM ship DOES hamper you. And in cases where the opposition has half a brain, hampers you to the point of making it impossible to kill him 1v1.
I dont want an all in one uber ship, i just dont want ecm nerfed past its point of usefullness because of the perceived imbalance of someone who apparently doesnt use ECM enough.
With ECM taken completely out of the picture, the ships are fairly well balanced between their natural strengths and weaknesses. They have their strengths and can be countered by another race's ships setup to counter that.
Strip an Amarr ship of its natural defenses and it relies on killing quickly to survive. Strip a Minmatar ship of its natural defenses and it relies on killing quickly to survive. Strip a Gallente ship of its natural defenses, when those defenses are up to speed, and it'll rely on killing quickly to surive.
Strip Caldari ships of ECM? You have a huge shield tank that takes feck all to kill. And you can sit there repeating to yourself "It's not imbalanced! I'm meant to ignore the natural defenses of my ship and use ECM as both defense and attack." And you won't convince me. So it's either impasse, with TomB already looking to nerf ECM which says he thinks there's an imbalance. Or you can start flaming me if it'll make you feel better.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:52:00 -
[11]
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I personally consider scorps to be far more dangerous as shield tanks than EW platform for 1vs1 combat, so in the end, it's not about the ship, it's about the modules ;)
But that's just my opinion...
Z
But to make a Scorpion an effective shield tank takes a skill investment. Any idiot can get Caldari bship 1 + EW 1 + Propulsion Jamming 1 and call themselves an EW master.
Hmm...looks like an imbalance to me.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 21:03:00 -
[12]
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It's actually better to have as little EW skills trained, anyway.
You know what I mean. Yes, I just got into my first Scorpion a couple days ago. But having focused on skills related to Minmatar ships, my energy and shield skills are lacking to make an effective shield tank.
It's fun to fly a different ship and is a smaller investment risk than my Tempest. But I'm not gonna run gungho into a fight with it with my current skill sets. Course I could always toss EW gear into the midslots...But I didn't make a Scorpion for EW capability.
That'd be ignoring its real strength, imo.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 21:18:00 -
[13]
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It all comes back to a simple point: People keep acting like Caldari ships will be utterly defenseless and useless without ECM which is utter nonsense. What people really want is to make their opponents utterly defenseless and kill them all with the same ship.
Caldari ships are shield tanks. A ship that can run an opponent out of ammo and patience is far from defenseless in my book. Missiles are no longer worthless, so that doesn't wash anymore either.
If they make ECM a high slot every other races will become ew specialists with the Amarr in the lead, leaving caldari out in the cold with only shields and missiles. Missiles/torps wont help them much if everybody else can easily jam them (you cant win with using FoF only). So Caldari has only the option of a no damage dealing, shield tank setup! What are they supposed to do? Bump you to death??
Last time I checked, every race has a Tier 2 ship with 8 hi slots. ECM modules weren't slot specific when they were high slot module, IIRC.
Let's not pretend that suddenly the Caldari become the redheaded stepchildren of Eve here. When a ship is target jammed Caldari have the best chance of coming out on top. Followed by Minmatar. Because of those worthless FoF Cruise missiles ( ) forcing the person jamming to use cap to repair damage. And their shield tanking ability allowing them to soak any incoming damage longer than any other ship type in the game, including Amarr armor tanks.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 22:07:00 -
[14]
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It's not gonna happen, you know that?
Moving ECM to hi-slots only would require major re-adjustments of ships and possibly ship bonuses.
Mostly just a rebalancing of the modules themselves I think. But which would you prefer: that or never being able to jam someone as the modules each have a chance of not successfully jamming a target based on range?
That's the current idea, remember? While I'd prolly find the swearing on TS thoroughly hilarious, I'd not look forward to "1 out of fecking 4 failed?!?" everyday.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
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